ACC Memorial Hall Under Threat

[Ian E Scott]

I have received a response from the GOC, as it contains my home address I shall not scan it to the Site

The text reads:

Dear Mr Scott,

Thank you for your letter of 12 May, setting out your concern over the provision of the Gurkha Mandir for the soldiers of the 10 Queens Own Gurkha Logistic Regiment.  The decision not to change the contracted position of 2002, to refurbish the ACC Memorial Hall was taken after extensive assessment and a full Options View involving - among others - the ACC Association and Director RLC.  It was not taken lightly, but in full understanding of the financial implications of re-provision as well as the consequence to other important requirements that would otherwise not be affordable.  A key part of my finding is that DRLC and the ACC Association be engaged in developing a plan to re-site the memorabilia and artefacts to further strengthen the links between the ACC and Aldershot (if that is what they so wish), perhaps by improving the existing memorial at Ramillies Copse and within the Garrison Church.  The latter is particularly important, given its role in delivering the ACC Association Memorial Service last year.

I understand that you will recieve a formal response to your recent petition, and I hope my comments provide further context to that reply.  My staff will remain engaged with the Association, who I am sure will keep you abreast of developments as they evolve.

Yours Sincerely,

Lamont Kirkland

Now is that a bloody non-answer to my letter or what?

The man lies like a politician cringing over his expenses claims.

The ACC Association were NOT called to a meeting in respect of the Options Review, the DRLC was.

You have not been stitched up by your Association on this one, but by politics!

[Jerry Hunter]

Hi,
I have just recieved  a reply from my MP who looked into  my request re the memorial hall. he corrisponded with the Veterans Minister  Kevan Jones MP and below is the reply  he sent my MP.
 

“ Dear Grant

 

Further to my letter of 5 May I am now in a position to provide a substantive response to the concerns expressed by your constituent, Mr Jeremy Hunter, about the future of the Army Catering Corps Memorial Hall in St Omer Barracks, Aldershot.

 

The review to which I referred to in my earlier letter has now concluded and, after a very detailed and careful consideration of the option, the Army have taken the decision to proceed on the basis of the current plan and convert the Memorial Hall into a Hindu Mandir.  The temple will be used by the soldiers and families of the 10 Queens Own Gurkha Logistic Corps on their relocation to St Omer Barracks, Aldershot.  This option is fully-funded, can be delivered on time alongside the ongoing redevelopment of the St Omer Barracks Village, and is entirely fit for purpose in terms of location and access.  The other options considered during the review would have had major financial implications imposed considerable difficulties on those wishing to attend the Mandir and have, with some reluctance, been discounted.

 

The ACC Association have been closely engaged in the review and I hope they will understand why the decision has been taken.  I am very aware of the impact this will have on them.  Therefore, the Army in consultation with the Association are now looking at what might be done to strengthen the links with them in Aldershot, and in particular where to deploy the artefacts and memorabilia from the Memorial Hall which meets the needs of the Association.

 

I am sorry to send what I know will be a disappointing reply but I hope this explains the situation.

 

Kevan Jones MP”

 Again They are saying that the ACC association have been involved  but as  Ian has said they have not.
So  Ian is right  its politics all the way





 

[pitbull10]

Still not one of these so called gentlemen understand the concept that the hall was paid for by the ACC ass members, not the MOD.
Also the consultation has not involved the ass or its members.

When is someone from the ACC ass going to step in and do something about this before its to late.

Someone who has some clout needs to put the veterans minister and these MP's right.

Rob

[stampy608]

Considering the bitter disappointment reflected in recent replies, the importance to the Corps history and the potential damage to the Association itself, I have to ask why, if the Association were not consulted during the negotiations, they have not issued a full statement regarding this very important issue. 

By my own admission I was not in the days pay scheme during my service, although like most people in the Corps I do care.  The Association needs to be seen to responding to this in the strongest way possible.

It has taken just 16 years to lose our cap badge, our barracks and now our Memorial Hall.  How long will it take until we are just a dusty old flag at the back of the Garrison Church.  Isn't it time to stop the rot?

Note that the use of the hall has been decided before the current occupant has been rehoused.  How second rate does that seem? Is this a true reflection of how the Corps was perceived by the MOD?

Please start to show the leadership entrusted to you and fight this - and be seen to fight this.  The Gurkhas had an actress in her sixties to fight their corner recently, can we not do anything with any of the retired elite we used to spend hours peel eyeing and sizing for?  Balls in your court Boys....

[StillPete]

I,m some what confused as this was on the ACC wedsite:

The interested parties met on 24th October 2008 and the Project Team was asked to consider an alternative proposal. They subsequently responded that there was no alternative and that the plans would go ahead.

 

The Project Team is now reviewing 6 options due to pressure from Director RLC and as a result of Ian Scott’s Petition to 10 Downing Street and a meeting of all parties is to be held in May 2009 to agree a way ahead. In the 3 months it was open the Petition received 562 signatures and attracted the interest of the Minister of State for Defence. A Parliamentary Question followed which led to Gerald Howarth Conservative MP for Aldershot picking up the case in our support. He visited the Hall in March 2009 and was adamant that its original purpose would be preserved for the veterans of the ACC. He subsequently took up the case with local military commanders.

 
It appears here that the ACC Association did meet?

[Ian E Scott]

In response to Pete's previous post, the Association was NOT consulted in the final stages...DRLC attended and was not accompanied by anyone from the Association.  DRLC fought our corner but as we can see (so far) was over-ruled.

Brian (Fred) Schwarzer has sent the following to the GOC (Aldershot)

If you care please write to the GOC...NOW! 

                                                                                                Mr B.F Schwarzer
                                                                                               

                                                                                               

The General Officer Commanding
Headquarters 4th Division
Steeles Road
Aldershot
Hampshire GU11 2DP                                                           4th June 2009


Dear Sir

ACC Memorial Hall

You are no doubt aware of the concerns being raised by ex-members of the Army Catering Corps regarding your decision of its future within St Omer Barracks.

The decision you have made, to have it converted into a temple for the Ghurkas, is a desecration of a War Memorial to fallen comrades who paid the supreme sacrifice. This decision cannot be the single action of a serving soldier, effectively having no regard for the fallen. Serving soldiers of the day helped raise subscriptions to build it.

Again your decision, I believe politically motivated, effectively leaves us with no physical memorial to the Corps within Aldershot Garrison. I believe you may address the Copse at the old Ramilles Barracks as a memorial, not many soldiers of my era and of those living to-day would know of its existence. St Omer is and should be where our lasting legacy in the Army should be.

I have had the privilege of serving along side the Gurkhas , and have the utmost respect and admiration for them. Their plight at the moment highlights them heavily in the British Public. In this context, what a fitting tribute it would be to have a brand new purpose built temple for them, not a desecrated War Memorial. Funding will be found or allocated for a new officers mess, why not a temple. This could be used for all serving Ghurka soldiers and their veterans and families.

Our own Association committee are determined to fight on perhaps to no avail, the Governments response was typical of the way they are running the country. Only public opinion has brought them to their senses regarding the Gurkhas.

The support we are getting from the people we most needed it has been at best very poor, the Catering Corps no longer exists so what. Does history no longer play apart of a soldier’s life to-day? It would appear not.

I write these comments as an ex member of the Army Catering Corps, to express my serious concerns regarding the way we have been treated. If the decision goes ahead I will have no physical place to call the heart of my Corps history, and no real memory that St Omer Barracks existed.


Yours sincerely



Brian F Schwarzer
(ex Warrant Officer Class 1 Army Catering Corps)

[StillPete]

I'm still confused as to why on the ACC association  website there is not mention of this news? Like stampy wrote, why is the association not making more of this and why have they not done some sort of press release?

[Ian E Scott]

At Last A Reply From My Very Busy MP

Dear Mr Scott

Thank you for emailing to me about your concerns about proposed changes to the use of Army Catering Corps War Memorial Hall in Aldershot.

I will investigate this matter on your behalf and write to you more fully in due course. 

I am grateful that you have brought this important matter to my attention.

Yours sincerely

Andy Burnham MP

burnhama@parliament.uk   
10 Market Street
Leigh
WN7 1DS   
tel: 01942 682 353
fax:01942 682 354   

[Ian E Scott]

 
My apologies to everyone after a long effort the following has just been released by the ACC Association.  I am sorry we could not win this battle.

Members will be aware that as part of the redevelopment plans for St Omer Barracks, the ACC War Memorial Hall has been earmarked for reassignment as a Gurkha Temple and Families Centre to accommodate the needs of the Queens Own Gurkha Logistic Regiment when it moves from its present barracks in North Camp, in 2011.

 

The Hall was completed in 1956 after ten years of fund raising from Army Catering Corps soldiers and officers. It was built to fulfil two main purposes; to provide a hall for recreational and sporting purposes and a shrine to commemorate the loss of 775 ACC soldiers and officers during the Second World War. This shrine is an integral part of the building and during discussions between the MOD Project Managers and the Association, through the Director Royal Logistic Corps it was made clear that a Hindu temple and a Christian shrine could not be collocated as it would be inappropriate for both groups.

 

The interested parties met on 24th October 2008 and the Project Team was asked to consider an alternative proposal. They subsequently responded that there was no alternative and that the plans should go ahead. Ian Scott’s Petition to 10 Downing Street in the 3 months it was open received 562 signatures and attracted the interest of the Minister of State for Defence. A Parliamentary Question followed which led to Gerald Howarth Conservative MP for Aldershot picking up the case in our support. He visited the Hall in March 2009 and was adamant that its original purpose should be preserved for the veterans of the ACC and subsequently took up the case with local military commanders.

 

A meeting of all parties was held in April 2009 to agree a way ahead and the Project Team produced 6 options due to pressure from the ACC Association Chairman, Director RLC and Gerald Howarth MP. As a result the GOC 4 Division confirmed that the only practical solution was to go ahead with the original plans for a Hindu Temple. This resulted in a flurry of protest letters from members and the Chairman ACC Association, all to no avail. The bottom line is that the ACC gave up the lease and ownership of the hall to the MOD in 1993 as it was unable to afford the upkeep as a separate Corps. This was with an agreement that the ACC/RLC Training Centre would keep the hall for its original purpose and whilst they were the tenant everything was fine. However as we all know the School of Catering moved out of St Omer in 2009 and anticipating this another sympathetic tenant was found in the Services Central Library. They have subsequently been served an eviction notice and the Association cannot continue to maintain its presence without a suitable tenant.

 

The next steps are to make sure that our memorials and artefacts are preserved in a way appropriate to the memory of our war dead and the training legacy in St Omer Barracks. The Association Executive Council will meet on 13 Jul 09 to consider options and to plan negotiations with the Project Team and the Gurkhas. We have been assured that the Garrison is sympathetic to our needs and that funding will be available. This page will updated in August when a way forward becomes clearer.

 

Anyone interested in expressing a view is requested to write to:

 DON'T HOLD BACK ON ANY COMMENTS YOU WISH TO MAKE TO THE ASSOCIATION OR THE MOD!

ACC Association (Memorial Hall)

Dettingen House

Princess Royal Barracks

Deepcut

Surrey

GU16 6RW

[pitbull10]

What is the saying AT THE GOING DOWN OF THE SUN (Blah Blah) WE WILL REMEMBER THEM

It needs to be rewritten, You will be forgotten, ignored by you association betrayed by your replacements (RLC) F**kING Disgraceful.
Any of those who have made this decision, should NEVER utter those words again ever.

Your disgusted

Rob

[stampy608]

The Bottom Line

Finally we have it.  It isn't our Memorial Hall after all and hasn't been since "the ACC gave up the lease and ownership to the MOD in 1993" on grounds of cost - what a betrayal!

That sounds a bit like giving up a second hand car because you can't afford to run it.  It's a bit like a second marriage where you give up one of your kids because it doesn't fit in with the new furniture.  I was lead to believe that our Corps had not died but had merged into the RLC - i.e.  Are the RAOC members war dead being treated with such wanton abandon? Surely the RLC has a debt of responsibility and duty of care to all of its core elements and therefore should have fought our corner harder and better than it has(how many senior officers past and present signed the petition? - there were some very noticeable absentees). 

Then there is the matter of the 6 options produced by the project team what exactly were these options? 

Lets face it - the battle for the Hall was lost in 1993.  The battle now is to ensure that the shrine and all remaining items pertaining to the Corps are rehoused in a suitable facility with the full support of the Corps behind it  Assuming the Garrison is prepared to fund the relocation (as it should due to the MOD having received a perfectly good building from us so cheaply) the forthcoming AEC meeting needs to ensure that the best and not cheapest option is decided upon and fought for with venom in any negotiations it has with the project team.  The relocation itself should be non temporary and protected from becoming the soft target the Memorial Hall was allowed to become  - nothing less is acceptable.   

[keithbennett]

perhaps when you see in the media," He was only a cook in the army",you can see why nobody care,especially the rlc,try moving their raoc,museum from deepcut,its seems that the people that ran the acc asscociation at that time should hang their heads in shame.

[StillPete]

I think that there seems (rightly) to be a lot of anger over this, and some aimed at the ACC association for not doing enough. I feel that this is a little unfair when less than 600 people signed the petition to keep the hall in the ACC.

I believe this gave the the people making this decision no other option, as there is no real support.

Its been mention other Regiments & Corps being more important than the ACC? Lets face it  we as a Corp have let ourselves down, when less ex members (we must number in the 10's of 1000's ) sign to show support than died serving their country in the 2WW then we should hang our heads in shame

There are many meaningless stupid petitions on the No10 website which number in the 1000's yet we can't hit 600?

[pitbull10]

I recently had to ask for help, from the machine that is veterans agency,  a chap came to my home an uttered those self same words ONLY Army Catering corps, ONLY a cook. "We Deal with those who have seen real service".To this day we have never had any respect from any other regiment, corps, section of the armed forces. We were never seen as worthy of Royal. A Joke then and a joke now, Got rid of, replaced by a corps that will never support there former colleges from the ACC.
It is a very bitter pill to take, when the MOD, armed forces, associations, government treat you as if you no longer exist.
They should do as they wish, They will do anyway.

Rob

It strips your pride away from you.

[StillPete]

Hi Pitbull
Sorry to here you are in need of help and are going through what sounds like a sh*t time,

I served in the ACC and then the RLC for 22 years I am now in the TA, and have sympathy with you and how you have been treated. Up until my last 2 years of service I believed in the ACC/RLC as a family and it would look after its own.

Sadly I found out that this isn't always the case and the can be black & white in its outlook, many friends I thought I had very quickly deserted me, tried me and condemned me prior to a CM I was unfortunately facing.

However I also saw the other side, all from people not in my Corp! It was them who stood by me, supported me and fought for me to correct the wrongs before and then after I was cleared of all charges at my CM.

I guess that's the problem in many case, its often how we see ourselves, rather than than how others see us, which creates this disrespect.
I'm with 106 Regt RA (V) and our CO makes the point of including the work that the chefs do , every time he addresses the regt.

I'm truly sorry that you have had dealings with what is clearly a small minded arse and you should be proud of the fact that you have served your country! There are many people out there past and present who have nothing but utmost respect for Army caterers and the job they do.


This may be a silly question, but have to asked the ACC association for help?